About the Series:
Change Matrix has launched a new Podcast Series for 2021, called Equity in Action. Since our inception in 2008, founders Elizabeth Waetzig, Rachele Espiritu, and Suganya Sockalingam have maintained a focus on cultural competence and eliminating disparities. We continue a focus on equity on all of our current projects, continuously look for ways to take action, and look forward to a world where all people get what they need, in ways that work for them, in their communities.
What we Discuss in this Episode:
Dionne Coker-Appiah, PhD, MAED is an assistant professor in the department of psychiatry at Georgetown University Medical Center. Dionne focuses on using community-based participatory research (CBPR) approaches to study adolescent dating violence, adolescent mental health, and adolescent sexual health among rural African Americans. She has collaborated on several federally and non-federally funded research projects.
Listen as CM Co-Founder Elizabeth Waetzig, JD talks with Dionne about how to meaningfully create equity.
Transcript of the Conversation:
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Hello everyone. I am Elizabeth Waetzig, a managing partner with Change Matrix. This is our podcast called Equity in Action. And I am joined by Dionne Coker-Appiah who is a clinical psychologist at Georgetown with the MedStar System. We are so looking forward to this conversation, to having you Dionne, to hear ways in which you have identified opportunities for equity in action, how you’ve grown and your understanding and commitment to equity, and some of the things that you’ve done in pursuit of equity to get from the talking and the ideas to the actual doing things. So I just really want to welcome you into this space and thank you for being here.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Thank you so much, Elizabeth. Thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to this discussion.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Oh, good. Me too. So I’m going to take him back a little bit back into the before times before the PhD and just ask you when in your earlier life did you learn about equity?
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Well, I think those lessons started very early for me. I grew up in a rural community from Eastern Shore of Maryland a very small community and racism was really prevalent there. And so even as a young child, I can remember as far back as five to six years of age, just being exposed to things that just didn’t feel right. And we’re talking about equity. When you’re that young, it’s all about feeling, how things make you feel, how people make you feel, just your existence in a space, how that makes you feel. So when I was reflecting on this, I was thinking about how did I feel when I was five or six years old at elementary school age? And those feelings I think signify for me what equity meant back then. Things like walking into stores and being followed by the managers of the store. And not just you, everyone who looks like you, just literally on your heels, following you around the store to make sure that, I don’t know, maybe they want to make sure that they’re not stealing anything, but that happened a lot. And I still remember that from a very early age.
And back then, I knew it didn’t feel right, but it was normal. It just happened. And so you just expected. So stores, things like going into doctor’s offices and not feeling like you necessarily had a voice, that you couldn’t really say what you needed to say or share what you needed to share, or even ask a question. And that still happens today. And I remember that as a young girl as well.
Other things like school, school was a big part of my life. I was a very good student and just seeing the disparity in how students are treated, it was another equity point for me grow up. And then the big one that I think many people can resonate with is law enforcement. Just at a young age having to get the talk from your parents and the talk is the talk that could save your life. And so everyone at a young age understood how you’re supposed to behave when you encounter law enforcement. And growing up in a small rural community, all of these things that I’m sharing, they were very prevalent. And so those were the initial equity points for me. Things just didn’t feel right. And I was thinking back then. And I always tried to figure out what can I do, or what can other people do? What can adults do to make this feel right? And so I’ve just committed my life to trying to make it feel right for myself and for others.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah, it really makes me want to ask the question, what would it feel like if it felt right? Like what would be happening if it felt right?
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Right. No internal stress. As soon as you walk into a store, you feel stressed, like your heart starts racing, you’re not comfortable in that space. So if it felt right, you would be able to walk in and feel a sense of calm and peace. I think the best way to describe it is that, the level of hypervigilance wouldn’t be there. You would just be able to exist in your body, in your skin and be comfort and be able to smile and not be afraid to smile because you don’t know how that’s going to be received. So for me, I think if it felt right, I would be calm and comfortable and just feel protected in that space.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
I really appreciate the use of the word “hypervigilant” because we know in some of the work that we do that, that hyper vigilance that always having to be stressed and questioning and wondering whether you belong.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
That has mental health implications.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Oh, absolutely. Sure.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. Yeah. I’m guessing that there’s a tie between that and the work that you chose to do.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Oh, absolutely.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Can you talk a bit about that?
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes. So, as I mentioned earlier, I’ve always tried to figure out, I want that calm. I want that peace. I don’t want the hypervigilant feeling. And so I’ve always engaged in professional activities and extracurricular activities that played a role in figuring out how to bring about that piece and that calm. And so there’s no coincidence that I decided to go into the mental health field and become a psychologist, because we’re trained to help people find that calm and that peace and that level of comfort in their own skin.
And so the work that I do now, there are three primary areas that I focus on in my work as a psychologist, the clinical aspects, the research aspect, and then service. And I also do teaching. And all of these areas inform one another. And when I think and reflect on who I am and what I do professionally and personally, a lot of that is influenced by my early childhood experiences, and just my desire to make things better for myself and for those who are going to follow me.
And so I’ll just share a little bit about each of those areas if that’s okay. So let I start off with the clinical care. One of the things that I’m striving to do now is to make sure that there is a liberation-based psychology method infused in the work that I do. We are trained to be individualistic, not communal. We are trained to work from a blank slate and to not really express your emotional self in the moment with patients. And I think a part of that is okay, but I also think that it doesn’t work with every population.
And so liberation-based psychology methods really enable us to bring our full human, authentic, transparent to a certain degree when it’s appropriate selves into the room with our patients. So patients, I believe that patients need to see us as human beings, not as like robots that’s working from a script. And so this method really enables us to be authentic in the moment. And it really enables patients to dig deep and figure out for themselves who they are and who they want to be without feeling like something’s wrong with me. So you really start from a stance of you’re struggling with something, let’s figure out what it is. Let’s figure out how much of this is your baggage and how much of it is not your baggage. And then let’s sort it and figure out what you need to carry with you and work through and what you need to leave because it doesn’t belong to you.
And a lot of experiences for BIPAC patients is related to structural institutional racism, but carry that. We carry that with us in a way that is very debilitating. So this method of engaging with patients really, I see it as a respectful way of engaging with a patient so that they start off from a place of hope as opposed to a place of despair.
So one of the first things that we say to them is, nothing’s wrong with you. Let’s figure out why you’re struggling, everyone struggles, and then let’s figure out how to help you take that journey to work through it. And so it’s really a nice way to build patients up as opposed to breaking them down, and really allowing them to least a lot of stuff that’s not theirs. And so clinically, I’ve been really trying to infuse that into the work that I do with patients and I train my externs and supervisees to do the same because it really allows us to understand who we are to bring the appropriate portions of who we are to that space and allow patients to do the same. And they really appreciate that.
So clinically, that’s one of the things that I’m moving into because we need to change this narrative. There is a mental health crisis out there. BIPAC individuals are not seeking treatment the way that I feel they should. I know that they’re suffering, we’re all suffering. You can’t consistently be exposed to racism and racial injustice every single day of your life and not feel something, and not be exposed, not be traumatized. But we have historically had ways of dealing with that trauma that didn’t necessarily include reaching out to mental health professionals. We use informal networks to heal.
And my goal is to make sure that seeking professional help is an option and is a viable option and is an effective option. But there’s a lot of work that has to happen before that, before the help seek and even takes place. And so my job is to make sure clinically that all of my patients have a good experience in the clinical setting and feel respected so that they know that this is a viable option for them should they need it in the future. That’s how I approach my clinical work. Just freedom. Liberating patients, allow them to liberate themselves by releasing things that don’t belong to them. And they don’t quite understand how to do that all the time.
So that’s a clinical aspect. Let me shift now to the research component, which is another area that I’m really passionate about. I’ve been doing a lot of research over the course of my career and the only type of research that I conduct is community-based participatory research. Because again, like the clinical work, it’s a very respectful way. I feel of doing research in communities of color, particularly African-American communities because it enables us as researchers to partner with communities in a process of helping them solve their own issues that impact their community.
So they’re involved in the research from the beginning to the very end, from conceptualization to dissemination and they are involved in the researches. They’re not consultants, they are research partners. And I’ve found that this type of research really enables us to think about research differently, to think about research questions differently, and to also think about intervention development differently and in a way that is actually going to be effective in the community as sustainable. Because my goal is, I love working in rural communities. All of my researchers in rural African-American communities. And I focus primarily on rural health disparities, mental health disparities, adolescent dating violence prevention. And so being able to partner with communities means that if for some reason I leave the area or I decide to change positions or careers or whatever. The research stays in the community and they’re able to continue to do the work to liberate themselves and their communities on their own, whether I’m there or not. And that’s the goal of the type of research that I do.
So all of my research has this lens of how can we partner to address issues that are important to you? And then how can we make sure that whatever intervention we develop are effective and sustainable over the long term? And so my research really focuses on those areas and I absolutely love it. I love being in communities and partnering and sharing, and I learn just as much as they learn. I’m coming in as an academic partner. They’re coming in as community partners. They are the keepers of that knowledge. And I have my skills and my expertise and together we’re just able to develop something that’s just beautiful and it’s long-lasting.
I’ve had partners in North Carolina that I’ve worked with for the past 16 years. And I was only physic in North Carolina for two years, and then I’ve been in the DC area for 14 years, but we’ve continued to maintain our partnership because of the way it was structured from the beginning. So that’s just a little bit about research, and I’ll talk more about that later that ties into those early experiences and why it’s important. And as I mentioned before, I grew up in a rural community. So it’s no coincidence that all of my research is conducted in rural African-American communities. So that’s a straight connection there and I love it because I feel like I’m giving back in a way that I need to give back to make this work meaningful for me.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah, that’s just extraordinary. I love hearing about the lived experience that you’ve had in the early experiences, the research, the knowledge-generating and dissemination that you’re engaged in and how you’re really aiming that at practice change, effective practice change that works specifically in communities that have not had adequate access to a system that should be uniquely situated to help. Given the nature of the mental health system, you would think that it would be uniquely situated to help, and yet it still needs refinement and practice change and systemic change so that folks can have access to the things that they need. I think there may have been a third prong there that you wanted to talk a little bit about.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes. There’s a third prong, which is service. So as a faculty member, services is like a component of what we do. And I’ve been able to engage in service activities and play roles in this area that have uniquely aligned with everything that I’m talking about today.
One of those things is, I recently assumed the role of the director for EDI Issues in our department, in the department of psychiatry. It’s a co-directorship with one of my colleagues, Corey Williams. And so in this role, we are able to really identify EDI Issues that are impacting and affecting our department and to play and into will role in helping to change some of that or enhance it or get rid of it. It just depends upon what situation is. And we are uniquely poised to be able to do that. So I’m excited about this role. It seems like everything that I’ve been doing from earth early childhood to my career has led me to this point to be able to assume this role and be great at it.
Another role that I’ve played in over the past few years is one of the faculty co-directors for the Gender Justice Initiative at Georgetown, and this is a multi-campus initiative. And so we’re partnering with colleagues at the law center in main campus and in the medical campus, and we’re addressing all issues related to gender justice and supporting research that informs practice around gender justice and policy issues around gender justice.
So being in a leadership role with this group has really helped us change the landscape of what these issues look like at Georgetown, and to really play an integral role in making sure that not only are we focusing on… We are only focused on gender, we look at this intersectionally from an intersectional lens, but gender is our focus, but we’re also understanding that there are a lot of other intersectional components that impact gender. And so I’m able to engage in this work and think about justice from this perspective as well.
And then finally, another area, and these are three recent things that I’ve been doing over the past few years is that I’ve been able to partner with some other colleagues at Georgetown for our Racial Justice Committee for Change. So this really grew out of some issues that medical students were having at Georgetown. And so they wrote a letter to the administration expressing their issues. And then out of that came this RJC group. And I’m on one of the subcommittees that’s really working to focus on wellbeing and responsiveness and engagement in the Georgetown community.
So we’ve been able to really address racial justice issues from that lens. And so when I think about this and as I’m talking about it now, I’m thinking that all the areas that have impacted me as a young girl, and as a woman, I’m able to address those issues from a different lens now as a professional. And it all just comes together nicely and it’s very fulfilling. So those are three areas that I’ve focused on professionally.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah, in your service back to your community.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
And yeah, no. So we’re hearing an individual level, we’re hearing an organizational community level, and then we’re hearing a much broad level around the research that you’re doing and how that can be disseminated and supportive to the entire country, as well as the training and technical assistance work that you and I get to do together through the National Training and Technical Assistance Center for Mental Health of Children, Youth, and Family. I just want to notice a couple of the words that you’ve been.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Okay. Sure.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Liberatory came up earlier.I love that you’re using liberatory or liberation within the practice context. The equity, diversity and inclusion are certainly, we change the acronym, but sometimes we lump them together. And I think you were talking about them actually as separate ideas that we have to think about diversity as it relates to all of the voices and the participation and the engagement and the inclusive nature of what we’re doing from an intersectional lens ultimately to get to equity, but then you added justice.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
So this idea of gender justice, that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up because I liked it so much. So Dionne, I’m just curious because you’ve had such an extraordinary career so far. And say so far because there seems to be so much more to be able to do. And you also have a pretty broad view of the landscape, particularly around mental health, but you also identified some other broad topic areas. What are the priorities for you in terms of equity, moving to action, equity and action? What are some of the priorities that you might talk to us about with regard it to the mental health workforce broadly? Or the academia broadly?
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Right?
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
What do we need to be doing in knowledge-gathering or knowledge generation and dissemination? Can you talk a little bit about a couple of priorities that you think we really should be attending to right now?
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes, absolutely. When I think about this whole concept of equity, diversity and inclusion, the foundation that drives everything that I do is just making sure that whatever I do focuses on creating a space that is just and fair, that people are able to participate fully to be heard, to be seen valued and respected. So I think it’s important for me to just share that foundational piece because that is where everything that I do, it stems from that. Everyone needs to be a whole person and to be valued and respected and to be able to participate fully and transparently and with authenticity and not feel like they have to be someone else to fully participate.
So that’s where I start. And then when I think about how I’ve translated that and all of my experiences into action, I think a lot of this really focuses on the research. I think I want to start with the research piece because that’s where I think that I’ve been able to over the years translate a lot of this into action. So I think that we need to talk a little bit about the types of research that I do and how that’s been translatable.
A lot of my early research and research that I still do now is focus around gender justice with a specific focus on the prevention of adolescent dating violence. I did my postdoc at John’s Hopkins University in the School of Public Health in the Department of Mental Health. And that’s where I met a phenomenal mentor, Jackie Campbell, who was doing research around adolescent dating violence. And everything that I’ve done since then has been in an effort to ensure that communities of color, particularly young people are safe in relationships.
And so I’ve been able to use my CBPR, the Community-Based Participatory Research approach to develop interventions for rural African-American communities to help keep these kids safe in relationships. And so that was my initial way in which I translated this EDI work into action because we are really equipping young people with tools and skills and knowledge that they can use to become fully functioning individuals who can do all those things that I listed earlier, who can participate, who can be heard, who can be seen, people who are not invisible.
And another big piece of that is also teaching them about societal structures that are in place that make it difficult to do that. And so I think that just teaching young people about healthy relationships is not enough. That’s an individual-level intervention. Our interventions have to span the whole socio-ecological model. Starts at the individual level, but then has to translate and spread out all the way up to the top, because if I’m teaching you how to be healthy in relationships, but there’s still structures and policies in place that make it difficult for you to do so, if there are no policies in your school, specifically around adolescent dating violence and consequences, we’re only solving one piece of the problem. And so my research spans that spectrum so that we’re focusing on individual level, interpersonal level, societal level and policy, we’re going all the way up.
And so we’ve integrated individual-level interventions into the work, but we are also talking to politicians, and we’re also talking to school personnel to figure out what can we do in the school system to make sure that kids are safe? And what policies are in place to protect them and to offer consequences when someone violates those policies? And then we’re also working with local and state and national politicians to talk about this issue so that everything that needs to be in place to protect a young person is in place. And so our research spans that social-ecological model. And for me, that is equity in action because we’re making sure that we’re covering all aspects of this issue and so that young people can thrive. And so that’s one area that I think we’ve been able to really use research to bring about action.
Another research area that I’m really excited about is around mental health. My whole adolescent dating violence program has a strong mental health component, but now I’m engaging in a research program that focuses specifically on mental health and challenging the system that makes it difficult for us to protect our mental health. When I say us, I mean African-Americans who live in rural communities because that’s my focus.
So there are two projects that I’ve been working on recently. One is called Minding Our Business, and this is an intergenerational exploration of mental health among rural African-Americans. And I have to share the story about the title because growing up as we were started off talking about early childhood and experiences, growing up, I think that a lot of African-Americans hear the phrase “you need to mind your business,” which means do what you need to do in your household and stay out of other people’s business. And on some level, I think that’s okay.
And I think that it has utility and it protects people. But on another level, particularly when we’re talking about mental health, I think that we need to change that narrative as well. And so we decided to call this project Minding Our Business instead of minding your business as its play on words as a call to action because if we are going to tackle these mental health disparities and deal with this mental health crisis that we are currently facing, we have to support each other, which means that sometimes we have to get into each other’s business. And so this is a collective approach of, let’s talk about what’s going on with us as a community, as individuals, as a family, and let’s figure out how we can help each other because we’ve been living in silos for so long, minding our own business, and everyone is suffering and we’re all suffering in silence and in silo.
So how can we get out here and engage each other and engage the system in a way that’s going to enable us to better understand what mental health means? What knowledge, perceptions and beliefs do you have about mental health? And what do we need to do? How do we need to form the system to make it easier for you to engage the system and to seek help when you need it? And how can we also respect the fact that for generations, this is how we’ve been functioning? We talk to our pastors, we talk to each other, we talk to our friends, how can we respect that, but also complement that with other resources and support systems that are going to ensure a collective movement forward and in the right direction?
So that is this one project is something that I’m really excited about. And we’re able to talk to first and second-tier caregivers. We’re talking to grandparents, parents and caretakers, young people. We’re talking to law enforcement officers. We’re talking to faith-based leaders to just get people talking about mental health because the problem is that we need to normalize this. We need to make it okay for people to talk about this. They need to talk about mental health and their needs the same way they talk about physical health. If you’re struggling with trauma, why is it not okay for you to go and seek help from someone who can really help you professionally the same way you would if you break your leg? You’re not just going to go home and talk to your family about a broken leg. You’re going to go to the emergency department, or you’re going to go talk to your physician. You’re going to get it healed. It’s sealed, healed, set until it heals. You’re not just going to walk around on a broken leg. So why are we walking around for lack of a better word with broken minds? Why are we doing that and thinking that it’s okay and thinking that we can solve it ourselves when we don’t have the expertise and the resources to do so?
So a big part of what we’re doing with this work is changing the narrative, making it okay. It’s okay to say that you’re not okay. And not only do we want you to say that you’re not okay, we want to be there to support you and help you figure out the next steps so that you can ultimately be okay. And so that body of work translates into what I’m doing right now, which is very new actually on the Eastern Shore of Maryland where I’m from. So I’m actually able now, after all these years, to work in the very community that I shared with you early on that I grew up in.
And so we’re building this rural mental health initiative where we’re engaging stakeholders, youth, caregivers, faith-based leaders, school personnel, to just engage in discussions around mental health in the local community. And our ultimate goal is to figure out how can we provide mental health services to young people in a community where mental health resource and services are very limited, and the community has a lot of resistance and stigma? And I don’t even want to use the word “resistance,” because I don’t think that’s the right term. I think that there’s a lot of stigma related to mental health, and there’s a lot of reservation about whether or not it’s okay to engage the system.
So we’re trying to figure out innovative ways to provide those services to young people and families. And we’re writing a grant now that’s enabling us to really have those community-level discussions about mental health with the ultimate of developing dissemination products and engagement products that, excuse me, that can be consumed by the local community to begin to change these discussions and change that narrative. And we’re also trying to think about innovative ways to develop community-based and community-led healing circles so that while we’re waiting for everyone to get comfortable with the system, is there something that we can offer the community that’s community-led that they can use right now to start those discussions with each other.
And so that’s another way that we’re translating this work into action. And it’s been a great experience. Everyone is so excited. And I’ve learned that once you start talking about mental health and you normalize mental health and you say that it’s okay, people will start talking and they won’t stop talking, which is great. So, those are just a few examples of some of the things that I’ve been doing with my research that has really enabled me to translate a lot of the theory and the learning that I’ve been doing into action like meaningful action.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. And I’m guessing it also influences your practice, your libratory practice with individuals.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Absolutely.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
There are some principles that I heard, Dionne, that really help us think about equity in action broadly. One of them was changing the narrative. I think I heard you say that a number of times that other people have told the narrative about us or other people have owned the narrative about communities and we are changing that. The part of equity in action is to change that so that communities can own their own narrative.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
That it’s not-
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Exactly.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
So in addition to communities owning the narrative and the knowledge and the dissemination, it’s also a collective approach to healing and to wellness, which I think sometimes comes into conflict with the way that this country has grown up as an I-based individualistic achievement culture. And so in some ways, you’re swimming against a flow of a narrative that started in the before times. So we’re changing a lot of narratives. And that idea that we can mind our business. And also, I would imagine, can create a sense of belonging in a different way. And maybe that’s the start of feeling right. Maybe that contributes to, I want to feel okay and I want to feel like it’s right in the place where I live.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes, absolutely.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah, just [crosstalk 00:35:50].
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Absolutely.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
And because you just said that, when I’m in these communities and have been working in these communities, that’s exactly how it feels. Like it feels right. That anxiety and nervousness and hypervigilant that I described earlier as a young child walking into stores or really anywhere it’s the opposite of that now because we’re able to turn some of this into action and we feel empowered. That feeling of calm and peace, that’s what we feel now. And it emanates from others around you. So when you’re in these groups and you have your community partners there with you and you’re talking about these issues, issues that they haven’t been able to talk about ever, it’s just that feeling. You’re absolutely right. That’s what it is. This is what we need to do to get there, to get to that feeling right. Yes. And we are changing the narrative and we’re shifting the paradigm.
One of the things that I shared with a group recently was that I believe that deep down, we already have what we need to fix this. The problem is that it’s been buried for so long. And all that stuff that baggage I was talking about earlier has been sitting on top of it for so long that we can’t even tap into our true power that lays within. It’s in there. And the work that we’re doing, the research, the service, the clinical care, the teaching is unpacking that. We’re unpacking all of that so that we can change this narrative so that we can tap into the power that lives within us. This is ancestral power that we have that we don’t know we have.
So our job is to make it okay for people to be who they are, who they genuinely truly are. And it’s there and we just have to unpack it. And through these efforts that we are engaging in, all of these efforts, through intact, all of these efforts that I’m doing professionally, it’s allowing us to do that unpacking so that we can get to the good stuff that lives within all of us that we’re sometimes scared to bring out because we don’t know how it’s going to be received.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. Well, Dionne, your research and in your clinical practice and the teaching that you’re doing for new professionals coming up, I think is making an extraordinary difference in this field.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Yes.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
And I can’t wait to see the results, the impact of your research. I can’t wait to hear what happens in your home, in the Eastern Shore. I’m so excited about that already. I think we are going to go ahead and close, but I need to say how grateful I am. Not only that you spent 40 minutes with me in this conversation, but really for the way that you have observed and the way that you have created some powerful thoughts around this and the way that you’ve taken all of that and then invited other people in, and that your work is really dedicated to, it needs to feel right for everyone. And I’m so grateful for that, Dionne, and I’m so glad that we get to continue working together in all sorts of ways.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Same here.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Same here. I think collectively, we’re going to allow everyone to find their voice and to be authentic. And that is the true path to healing.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Because when we’re hot, when we feel like we have to hide and not be our true self, that leads to illness. And so we’re trying to combat that. And I think that together collectively all of the work that we’re all doing is going to really pave the way for transformation, like real transformation so that people are healthy and happy and thriving and being who they are. And this is going to have an intergenerational impact. I know it. I know it.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
I know it too. I totally 1,000% believe that as well. So I just want to thank those of you out there who have listened to this conversation for joining us for another Change Matrix Equity in Action podcast. And let’s all watch out for Dionne. She’s on the move.
Dionne Coker-Appiah:
Thank you so much, Elizabeth. It’s been a pleasure joining you today.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Thank you.
