Listen to Episode 3:
About the Series
At Change Matrix, we have been practicing training in, coaching around, and incorporating into our work adaptive leadership for the last 25 years. Based largely on the work of Ron Heifetz and Martin Linsky, we feel this practice is an especially equitable type leadership. We wanted to create this particularly timely podcast series to share what we have learned about and are learning as adaptive leaders. Learn more about the inception of the Living Adaptive Leadership series.
What We Discuss in this Episode
Change Matrix welcomed Dr. Tonicia Freeman-Foster to the team in September 2020. Founding Partner Elizabeth Waetzig speaks to Tonicia about her experience working in diversity, inclusion and equity. Tonicia discusses important adaptive leadership examples including giving the work back to the people and sitting with discomfort. She shares a bookshelf analogy in that it is important to help others build their library of experience.
Transcript of the Conversation:
Elizabeth
Okay, welcome everybody to our next installment in our series of Living Adaptive Leadership. This has been a Change Matrix Podcast series that we are super excited about because it offers people an opportunity to hear from folks who were actually applying adaptive leadership approach and principles. They’re living it, they’re doing it. Sometimes they’re doing it right. Sometimes they’re learning because it didn’t go as well as they thought it would. This approach is built upon the work of Ron Heifetz and Marty Linsky from Harvard. It is something that we’ve been studying and training people to do and practicing in our own work for a really long time. So this is the third in our series, and I am joined by Tonicia Freeman-Foster. And I am particularly excited about this podcast because Tonicia as of this month has joined our Change Matrix team. And she comes to us with amazing lived experience as the project director for healthy transitions.
Elizabeth
So she knows what it’s like to lead, engaging young people, engaging a community, and I think knows a lot about adaptive leadership. So we’re going to hear a little bit about what is it like to lead adaptively when engaging a community and engaging young people. She also has done some pretty cool work around diversity, inclusion and equity. And adaptive leadership fits into that space as well. So we’re going to hear something about that. And she sent a ton of other things. Mostly what I’m impressed by is that Tonicia spent her working life, providing services and supports to her community, to people who are vulnerable and making sure that everybody has the best shot that they can to live a full life. So Tonicia, what else would you add to your introduction?
Tonicia
Thank you, Elizabeth. And I think you summed it up really well, and that is my goal and my passion in life. I feel like that’s my mission to make sure that people have the tools and the resources that they need to live their best lives and to be the best versions of themselves possible. And that we also provide them education and the tools to make that happen for generations to come because we plant seeds and those seeds grow and we continue to make changes for generations and population. So I’m excited about that work.
Elizabeth
Yeah. I can tell I’ve known you for a little while. I’ve known you as a project director and I’ve known you as a consultant. And now I get to know you as part of our team. And I know it’s no secret to you that leadership is such an important part of what we do. And we think it’s an essential component to creating complex change in systems and communities. So I guess I wanted to start by asking you what your early relationship with leadership looks like.
Tonicia
That’s a great question. And I would say regarding leadership, I think it started for me in high school as a member of the Health Occupation Students of America program. We were also, in addition to receiving our diploma, we were also on track to receive our certification as nursing assistants. So we took clinicals and we had scrubs and everything. And I think it was through that experience that other people saw it in me first that my teacher said, “You are a leader and we want you to run for this particular open position.” And so I ran to become the regional president for our HOSA chapter and that is where it started. And I think it started for me because people saw it in me. And then later on in life, I saw it in myself.
Elizabeth
What was it like to have someone see something in you that you couldn’t quite see yet?
Tonicia
That is a very interesting question. Scary at first, because it’s like, “Do I really have what it takes to be a leader to really do this?” And then you think on the other hand, these are my nursing teachers. And so we’ve been together for a few years. So if they said it then it must be there. And so I have this thing of like, some people say fake it until you make it. I said, “Hold the pilot until the plane catches.” So I just go in and just walk in and be okay with knowing that they’re there to support you, that they didn’t put you in this to fail, that you will be fine. So it’s walking in that reassurance too.
Elizabeth
Yeah. So you grew up in your leadership under the watchful gaze of other leaders who mentored you, who saw that in you. When did it become sort of apparent to you that there are different styles and approaches to leadership?
Tonicia
Great question. I think for me, it’s been several instances, but I would say it would be in my work in child welfare and also in working with HIV and AIDS. And that as a child protective investigator, it was important for me to know the difference between various types of leadership. To know that this is a house that I’m going into and these children are being abused versus this is a house that I’m going into, and this is their current condition because they don’t know any better. And so to be intentional about that and say, “Wait a minute, this may not be like we want it to be,” but if we gave them the skills that they needed, they could be successful in caring for their kids. And we can keep these kids in the house because otherwise you would just go and remove everyone’s kids and that’s not the answer. So that was a critical lesson. And that was very important.
Tonicia
Also in my work with HIV is education and knowing that, okay, someone has a chronic illness, but there’s a lot of stigma attached to it. And so they may not come to their appointment. And that doesn’t mean they don’t care. It means that people were at my house or your office is near a neighborhood where people know me. And so I don’t feel safe. And so it’s going back to the drawing board and seeing is it maybe we need to meet at McDonald’s or Starbucks, or I can come to your house and you can just tell them that I was coming to sell Avon products or something. So it’s that type of thing. And helping people navigate and again, helping them be their best selves.
Elizabeth
Yeah. I hear in that servant leadership approach, that part of your leadership or part of the leadership approach that you grew up with was a servant leadership model. I also hear a facilitative leadership model where you’re really hoping to not do too, but to do with. Not even for, but with, and that takes a different way of thinking, I think. From sort of our traditional notions of what leaders do, did that occur to you sort of along the way that you were departing from a historical or traditional approach and taking on something that felt a little bit different as a leader?
Tonicia
Yes. And I think for me as a leader, it’s important to know that if something happens and I’m unable to be there for an individual one day or I leave and I obtain another job that they don’t fall apart. Because if they do, then I haven’t done my job well. If I’ve done everything for you and in my absence, you are helpless. My job and my goal is to empower you. And if you’re not empowered or you’re not able to navigate the systems that you’ve been using on an ongoing basis, then I have done you a disservice. And so I’m very intentional about that.
Elizabeth
Yeah, that’s really powerful. It also speaks to the need to think about leadership as a collective approach and not necessarily I got this because I’m the leader and I can do it myself. I think we’ve heard that before. I want to ask you specifically about adaptive leadership. When did you become familiar with the adaptive leadership approach?
Tonicia
I think for me, I was doing it before I was actually aware that it was a thing. And so again, in my work and working with HIV and working with substance use and behavioral health it’s required. If we are going to help people grow, it’s important that we know how to regulate distress, that we know how to give the work back to the people and all of those aspects that are involved with adaptive leadership. And so again, if we’re trying to be empowering versus empower and in control, then there are those steps are very important and very critical.
Elizabeth
I love that. I love the fact that you have identified that you had a set of principles and values and beliefs about the way that you are in service in your leadership role. So when adaptive leadership came along as an approach, you were already there for the most part, you were already sharing the work. I think what’s interesting to me, as we had changed matrix, as we support others to learn adaptive leadership, we are typically starting with a framework and trying to help people learn their way into it, explore their way into it, take on new frameworks or attitudes or ways of thinking. And I wonder if that’s harder. Do you think it was easier for you to begin to label the things that you were already doing as a leader?
Tonicia
No. I think once I understood… Let me say for me, it makes sense. And I think maybe it’s because I come from a different angle of services because traditionally I have served individuals who are marginalized and who have been stigmatized. And so it required me to do something different and it required me to lead, but also empower them, but also have an understanding of why they have been bound, why they have been oppressed and helping them to navigate that. And so for me, it was like, “Okay, this makes sense. There’s actually something that there’s a name for what I’ve been doing.” Especially working with communities of color, that, that’s important that we help people gain their voice. Because again, if I come in and I am constantly the person who is in power and doing all this work for people, when I leave, they’re going to be the same.
Tonicia
And the goal is for them to be better. The goal is that we create small goals along the way so that they can have those achievements and they can build on those and that will empower them and give them confidence that they need in the future. And so it makes sense to me, it’s like, yeah, we should give the work back to them. We should regulate that. Sometimes people are not confident and it’s through those relationships that we know, “Okay, I need to turn this up a little bit, or this is a little bit too hot. Let me bring it back down and let me help this person thrive.” And so it was, I think, a sense of relief to know, like, I’m just not doing it. I’m a researcher at heart. So it’s nice to know like, “Oh, this is grounded in some research like this. Okay. This makes sense.”
Elizabeth
So it’s intuitive and it makes sense. It’s grounded in something that people have thought about and researched and tried out. I think the other thing that I’m really hearing a lot of is that you took on this leadership approach as a provider of services, as a person who was available to support folks who may not have had a lot of resources. Who were overcoming challenges and your job as a leader was to help them find their voice and their power so that when they were not depending on you anymore, as a service provider, they were very well equipped to live their own lives. And I think that, that’s a really great application for leadership. I’m also wondering if this showed up for you. I mean, none of us do this work by ourselves.
Elizabeth
We all sit on teams. We all sit in collaborative groups. We all work really hard to make sure we’re moving forward with others. So how has adaptive leadership supported your work as a leader on a collaborative team and a community or in spaces like that?
Tonicia
Great question. I think it shows up in a similar way. So as the project director for Florida Healthy Transitions, we were very strategic about creating a peer to peer model where we hire young people to work with young people. And so a lot of the young people that we worked with, they were new, straight from college. They had recently graduated. This might’ve been their first as they call it real job. And so it was doing the same thing with them is finding little ways to challenge them and help build their confidence and build their skills and saying, “Okay, this is coming up. There’s a conference coming up. I would like three people to participate on this.” And so coaching them along the way to say, “Okay, let’s meet, we’re going to talk about the structure of the presentation. And then we will talk about who’s going to do what slides and we’ll come together.”
Tonicia
And it’s building like, “I’m going to be there for you. I’m going to support you through this.” And building their leadership skills and knowing when to turn it up and when to turn it down. I feel like it’s the same process. It’s just a different population and a different way of applying it. But the goal is the same.
Elizabeth
Yeah. So the principles of, “I want other people in the work. I can hold a space where I can regulate the distress. I’m giving work away.” So I’m not holding it all the time. I hear all of those elements. Is there a time that you can think of where you are part of a collaborative group and you were having a conversation about how to move forward. And it became apparent that there was some tension in the values of the group there. It was truly a challenge where adaptation for the group would have to happen in order for you to move forward. Is there a time when you can remember that, that happened in the community and how did you respond to it?
Tonicia
Well, there’s a few times. There’s one that I think coming together with Florida Healthy Transitions. There is this notion of young people being involved in service provision. You can be the recipients of the service, but when you start giving young people a voice to make decisions, people start getting really uneasy about that. And so there is a point in which we do have to adapt to that. And so that was a process for me and saying, “Wait, wait, these young people, they are subject matter experts. And so we need to have them at the table.” And how do we integrate this in a way where it’s mutually beneficial to everyone. And that everyone understands that we have a shared goal and it’s important for each of us to be there, to present various perspectives in order for us all to win.
Tonicia
And so that was an adaptive challenge that we took on, is bringing everyone together and regardless of age, like honoring perspectives and honoring that choice and that voice and that passion to win as a team.
Elizabeth
It does feel like when groups of adults come together, there are different opinions about what youth can do, should do, are qualified to do, what adults need to do. I love that you call the young people subject matter experts and you didn’t follow within their own lives. You actually believe, it sounds like that young people are subject matter experts who can lend their voices of experience to the greater good. And I just thought that was a really nice way to say that. How long did it take you to work through that adaptive challenge, if you don’t mind me asking?
Tonicia
I would say it was very short. I think underlying the thoughts behind young people being involved were probably there and it kind of reared its head at a particular point in time and were able to address it. And so between the beginning of the meeting and at the end of the meeting, we all came together with a shared understanding of like, “Oh, I get it now. Like this was important.” And what was amazing about it is that at the end it was like, “I can’t even think of how it would have ended without these young people involved and like, thank you for staying, stepping up and being firm in this and saying, no, everyone’s going to come together because we all benefited from that as a team.”
Elizabeth
Yeah. You’re describing, it sounds like a situation where the adaptive challenge is really about coming to consensus about what you think engagement meant, what it looked like.
Tonicia
Yes.
Elizabeth
Yeah. And then once everybody got on the same page, it was easier to move ahead because I had that opportunity to say, “Okay, I thought I know what it meant, but maybe I have to rethink that.”
Tonicia
Yes. And I think also having the grace to say, “I don’t understand it, but I understand that we have the same goal.” And so where I might not understand this particular aspect, whether it’s program management or program evaluation, I am still committed as a young person to ensuring the success of the young people that we work with. And so for me, that’s all that’s needed, that you are committed and that you are passionate about that because I can teach you the skills. I can teach you the other things, it’s that passion that you don’t find everywhere. And so it’s like we have to capitalize on that. We have to bring these people to the table and we will teach them the things they don’t know about various components, but we are all needed.
Tonicia
Again, we have our own perspectives, we have our own experiences and they’re all valuable regardless of age.
Elizabeth
Yeah. That’s awesome. So when you think about the whole adaptive leadership approach, is there an element of it or a part of the approach that you tend to lean on because it’s intuitive or because you find yourself doing it a lot? Is there a favorite aspect to adaptive leadership for you?
Tonicia
That’s a great question. I think all of the parts are my favorite. I think the part that I get tasked with a lot in that I’m privileged and humble to take on as well is protecting the voices from below and ensuring that people are heard. And a lot of times I am that person that people will come to and like, “This is not okay. What do you think about that? I want to say something, but I can’t say it in the way that you say it.” And so it’s being protective of that voice, valuing it and being protective in a way to still ensure that their voice is heard, but also protecting them as an individual and finding a way if I need to, to put the message together where it is receptive. And people are not feeling like they have to defend themselves.
Tonicia
So it’s a win-win. Like I need you to listen to this and you protecting that person, but you’re also sharing what they’ve said in there as authentically as possible, I think.
Elizabeth
That’s amazing because as you are protecting, you are that safe place. You are the safe place for folks to go when they feel vulnerable, when they are nervous or uncomfortable about what’s happening. So you are the safe place where folks have been able to turn and in your protection… And I struggle with the word protection, but what I hear from you is that you’re actually elevating these voices. So they actually don’t have to be from below anymore. They can be at the table with everybody else in a way that’s safe, in a way that’s trauma informed and in a way that’s productive for them and everybody else at the table. So is that right?
Tonicia
Yes, absolutely. And I think I look at it as like modeling the behavior. Like I have this and I need to say it and I’m angry and I can’t see it like this, but you know how to say it and you have a different type of relationship. And so for me, then I take that and I go back and say, “How do I best package this in a way that is firm and authentic, but also that people feel like they can help and do something about.” So a lot of times what happens, they will bring the information to me. But in that interaction, I’ve packaged it in a way that when I present it, they feel safe in sharing and saying, “I would like to second that, or this is what I thought in addition to.” And I sit and I’m like, “Yes. They said it. They spoke up.”
Tonicia
So that’s my ultimate thing is kind of like, I guess, leading the way and opening it up. Because again, I don’t want to be that person where everything that someone has a challenge with, they bring it to me and then they’re able to just go in the corner and be quiet. It’s like, “No, I’m going to take it. And I’m going to package it in a way to model this for you, because I want you to be able to do the same thing. I want you to be able to use your voice, and I want you to be able to stay firm.” And sometimes people don’t know how to do it because it’s never been done in a way that they felt was conducive in the workplace or a way that they felt comfortable with. And so for me, it’s modeling the way and giving them their voice and saying, “What you said, people might not agree with it, but it’s your perspective and it’s your experience and it’s important.”
Tonicia
So kind of opening the door for that, for them to feel safe, walking in, I guess for me, it’s the same experience that I’ve had. Where it’s like, “I’m going to lead the way, and then you’re going to come in and I’m going to be right here with you.” Like, “You will be safe. It will be fine.”
Elizabeth
You’re really holding an environment of safety, but not stagnation. So you hold a space where people can come in there and participate in a way that works for them. And you’re not going to rest if somebody’s not sort of taking on ownership of their voice in their life and as they’re ready to. So that’s part of the regulating the distress piece that’s so interesting. I’m wondering about how that way of thinking and being, and supporting others has shown up specifically in equity for you.
Tonicia Freeman-Foster:
I think for equity, it’s been a similar experience. And I think to be quite honest, recently, it’s been regulating the distress. And like, this is a moment in time where people are receptive to listening and to taking action and to doing self-reflection. And so for me, it is turning it up. Like, “How do we leverage this?” And we don’t burn people in the process, but we turn it up in an intentional, strategic and authentic way so that we can have real conversations. And understand that sometimes people do certain things because that’s what their environment has said, “This was a good thing for us.” And their cultural norms that say, “This is okay.” Even though it hurts other people and they do it because they haven’t seen the hurt that it causes other people, or because it’s too much to not be able to stand up.
Tonicia
And I always try to keep in the back of my mind of like, if a person is participating in racism or discrimination. And that’s what they’ve learned in their culture and in their family, if I teach them something different and I help them understand how their behavior is hurting people, where do they go for Thanksgiving and Christmas? How do they interact with their family? And so it’s that thing of like, knowing that change doesn’t happen overnight, that it’s a process. That it didn’t start overnight and it’s not going to change overnight. And that doesn’t excuse it being wrong, but it’s kind of practicing, I think, some empathy about how change will occur within this person. And also helping them with tools of the next time there’s a family dinner and this conversation comes up, here’s some things you can say and do to not be a participant in that type of behavior.
Elizabeth
Yeah. I really so appreciate the empathetic and strategic way that you have turned up the heat without burning people. I love that way of thinking about it. Is there an example of something that you’ve done to turn up the heat recently that you could share?
Tonicia
Sure. So in my previous organization, I was the coordinator for diversity equity inclusion. And after the murders of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, we started doing a lot of work around history about what different things meant in history. And so we did education around how did the police start? Where did that even start? What is the origin of that? We did a lot of education around Juneteenth and what was the true meaning of Juneteenth. And so it allowed a sharing of various articles, also allowed people to participate in their own way. And so we did a lot of different activities. We had a newsletter. We had a book club. We had lunch and learns. And so it was kind of meeting people where they were at and also allowing them the opportunity to review articles on their own and say, “Hey, I looked at this over the weekend and this is really messed up.”
Tonicia
So it’s giving space for all of that, for people to learn and to grow and develop.
Elizabeth
Yeah. It’s almost like change has to start with the learning and the reflection on the learning. I love that. This is messed up. I mean, that really causes us to think differently when we realize that what we were taught maybe in our eighth grade history class was not accurate.
Tonicia
Right. Yes. And I think giving people… Because self-reflection is important. So I think in the work of equity, people understanding the experiences of others to say, like, “I’ve have benefited from this and there are other people who have been oppressed by it or have not benefited and they should benefit from it.” So I think understanding that and removing the cover from that, it requires people to go into themselves and like, “Wow, I might not participate in it, but this is really messed up.” Like that and what can I do in my corner? And it may not be marching or protesting, but it’s, “What can I do at my church? What can I do in my neighborhood? What can I do on social media?” And so giving the work back to the people and giving them options, like you don’t have to do anything that you haven’t done before.
Tonicia
Do the work within yourself and do the work within the places that you currently navigate.
Elizabeth
Yeah. I mean, I think in some ways you’ve given us a new way to think about giving the work away. It’s not just the work of the change effort. It’s also the work of the learning and what are you willing to do to own your own journey? So that’s part of the work that you’re giving away, as well as the collective effort to create change, which is a little bit of a spin that I hadn’t thought about before. And it means that you’re not taking responsibility for their learning, right?
Tonicia
Right. And taking responsibility for the things that come up for them, the guilt, the shame, the embarrassment. And it’s like, it’s okay. And sometimes I think regulating the distress means we’re just going to turn it down for a second and allow you to sit with this. And it’s okay to be shame, but it’s not okay to stay in shame. Like where do we go from here? How do you make it better? Because we can’t take any of those past things back, but we can do something about today and we can do something about tomorrow.
Elizabeth
But the work is letting folks get to that point of being able to do something.
Tonicia
Correct.
Elizabeth
Yeah. And you’re willing to sit there and in grace and hold that space for a period of time and then decisions are made along the way. Yeah. That’s a really interesting way of thinking about that. I like that.
Tonicia
And I think too, for me, it brings up another aspect of adaptive leadership. When we talk about giving the work back to the people and recognizing as a leader that sometimes the work is not ours to begin with. Sometimes it’s their work anyway. And so it’s giving people their work back and allowing them to navigate and process that because it will make them stronger. It would make them wiser and it will set them up to achieve the next thing that they have to achieve in life as well.
Elizabeth
Yeah. And I think that’s sort of historically contradictory to our notion of leader, who’s supposed to get everything done and do all the things. And we’re actually saying, “No, we don’t do all the things as leaders. We make sure that the people who need to do the things are doing the things, right?
Tonicia
Yes. And my team always laugh because I always talk about the bookshelf of experience. In that if I solve all of your problems for you when we are not together anymore, or you’ve gone off, or whatever happens in life and hard time comes up or a challenging situation arises, you not going to have anything to turn to. Because your bookshelf is empty because I have all the books. Like, there’s nothing that you’ve done on your own because I’ve cuddled and protected you. And now you’re struggling versus if I allow you to, “You’re going to scrape your knee, you’re going to spring your ankle. You’re going to be okay, I’m here, but these things are necessary for you to build upon in the future.” And so it’s building that library of experience.
Elizabeth
Yeah. I bet your bookshelf is big. I bet it’s full. What books are missing for you though? Or still being written, what’s in progress or in process for you, Tonicia, because we’re all in the journey of leadership. So what are you turning your attention to in your journey right now?
Tonicia
That’s a great question. I don’t think there’s anything in particular. For me, it’s just being better today than I was yesterday and the next day. And just continuing to do that. And I think my personality is I enjoy learning, but I think a lot of times it’s our experiences that cause us to learn. So, I don’t know, it’s like whatever the next challenge brings me and when I look in my library and I find a gap, it’s like, “I need to learn that because I want to be better.” So that’s an ongoing process for me, that self inventory. And how do I just be better at who I am and what I do?
Elizabeth
Yeah. Well, what I appreciate about that actually is that you’re staying in the moment, you’re staying present with what is around you. And sometimes we lead with frameworks. Sometimes we lead with context, you lead with experience. It sounds like.
Tonicia
Yes. I think it’s a combination. I think it’s learning from others and also learning from experience. And it’s that combination where I think as long as we do both, like we’ll continue to win.
Elizabeth
Yeah. So as you join our Change Matrix team, knowing that we have a strong focus on equity, equity is a part of every single piece of work that we do. And we believe that leaders have a strong role in pursuit of equity. What are things that you’re hoping for or believe that we need to do to better support adaptive leaders who are pursuing equity?
Tonicia
That’s a great question. I would say repetitive conversation, just continuing the conversation around equity and also having authentic conversations about, “This is what equity is, and this is what it looks like.” And that helps people to set realistic goals. And I would say having some type of role-play in case studies, because a lot of times I think we talk about equity and it’s this layer on this cake. And we never get down to the bottom of it, of like, “I understand what equity is and I understand what equity does. Now how does that apply to what I do?” And I think through role-playing through real life scenarios and or allowing people to bring their experiences to a forum, it gives them the skills that they need to do it in a real life way that is meaningful to their particular situation.
Tonicia
Because I think a lot of times we go to trainings and conferences and we come back with these binders and it’s like, “They go on a shelf.” And like, “How does that apply to my life? How does that apply to real life?” So I think if we continue to provide space for authentic conversations and real life conversations about what happens in my world and also helping people to navigate challenges. So I understand what equity is, but in my organization, these are the barriers and the challenges that I experience. So helping people come up with creative strategies on how to be more confident in innovative things that they may be able to do to get to the same result.
Elizabeth
Yeah. I think this idea of authentic conversation and practice make a lot of sense. I think that providing spaces to sit in discomfort and also Heifetz talks about standing at the edge of the frontier, at the edge of the unknown. Because we can’t necessarily see what it’s going to look like if we dive in and yet we have to dive in. We have to take those steps. So how do we stand uncomfortable and vulnerable and willing to take those steps collectively with grace? And it’s not going to be a straight line. Feels like that’s a really important way to think about leading and supporting leaders to get to a more equitable space.
Tonicia
Absolutely. And I think just knowing that you are not alone is important because sometimes working with diversity equity inclusion, we know what’s right and we know what’s wrong and we struggle against other people or systems who don’t fully understand. Or who implement systems and policies that are contradictory to that. And so to understand, like, “You’re doing it right, and you have the right thought behind it. And these are just some barriers and challenges that we need to figure out how we can address and maybe try something that hasn’t been tried before in the past and it’s not you.” Because I think that’s important that we take it personal and like, “I’m a good person and I’m coming up with these great ideas and people should want to help people and it’s not working.”
Tonicia
And we beat ourselves up for sometimes things that are outside of us. And that are kind of norms, unfortunately, in working in diversity equity, inclusion work.
Elizabeth
Yeah. Well, you’ve given me a lot to think about. I’m guessing you’ve given the folks that are listening to this podcast a lot to think about. Is there anything I didn’t ask you about that you feel like you really want to share this morning?
Tonicia
I think we’ve covered it all. I think it’s just knowing that it’s a process and it’s a journey and there’s no point in which we can all say we’ve arrived. That once we get to the next level, there’ll be another level and we just have to continue to move forward and continue to know that we are not in this by ourselves and continue to grow. And as we’re teaching others, we should be learning as well. That it should always be a teach and learn process, that I am educating people, but they’re also educating me.
Elizabeth
Yeah. It’s a shared endeavor. We’re jumping into the pool of shared learning together, which is one of my favorite metaphors. Well, I could not be happier to welcome you to Change Matrix. I am so grateful that you were willing to spend some time with me in your second week with us doing this podcast. I think that I’m excited for the clients that we work with to get to know you. So I guess I just want to say thank you, Tonicia and I already loved working with you.
Tonicia
You’re welcome. Thank you, Elizabeth. And I am excited to learn and to grow and to share. So thank you for the opportunity and thank you for the privilege to be a member of the team at Change Matrix.
