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Transcript of the Conversation:
Elizabeth Waetzig:
You are listening to the Equity in Action podcast brought to you by Change Matrix. We are sharing the stories of people connected to our organization who have made positive change in equity, with the goal of inspiring you to take action. This week, we’ll be talking to Kim Harris, who identifies mentorship as an essential element in our quest for equity.
Alright. I am Elizabeth Waetzig, I am from Change Matrix, and this is the first in our new Equity in Action podcast series. And so, today, I am joined by Dr. Kimberly Harris, who has so nicely offered to let me call her Kim. And you live in Durham, North Carolina, right?
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
Yes, I do.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
And you are a consultant?
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
This is true.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Who works as an evaluator?
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
Yes.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. But I would love it if you could tell me about some of the highlights of your work in equity to date.
Just the highlights.
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
Alright. Okay. I think I can do that. So, even going beyond when I was formally engaged in research work—so, I’m just going to do a quick, kind of when I think about the intentionality that came with the equity work that I do, I think that started when I was working in the community college system in North Carolina where I worked. Did a lot of work in the workforce development area. I was a program director of a business administration in a large operations management program. But the thing that struck me was all of the lessons that I learned from my students, who really taught me.
And you know, Elizabeth, interestingly enough, as I’m having this conversation, I’m thinking about even before that, because I was in the community college system for almost a decade prior to even taking that role. In another community college, I worked with prison populations. And talk about being taught lessons around equity, around stigma, around resilience, around that little construct that we call grit. I learned a lot of lessons there that I know that I carried with me into the work that I did in a more administrative capacity.
But the one thing that I tried to be very mindful and intentional about was advocating for what my students needed. And what they needed—many of the students that I worked with, were first-generation college attendees, heads of households, lots of folks depending upon them. But they had a tremendous faith in the transformational power of education. And that reinforced and reaffirmed my faith and belief in education, because every day it was like restored as I looked in my students’ eyes, who were really committed to, “My dream for myself is to really have a four-year degree.” And not to say that anything was wrong with the two-year degrees that we offered within the system, but a lot of my students were just like, “I just have this desire. I just have this desire to pursue that.” And it seemed so far from here to there. And many of them, they talked about it more of as a fanciful wish, and that really made me want to help them, to advocate for them, to partner with them to make it their reality.
And so, in that work, I worked with the deans and other colleagues, and we identified really creative way working within the four year and two systems within North Carolina to create that pathway for students and to see what hope looks like on the face of someone who feels like, “I’m going to be able to model for my child what it is to be on the path to obtaining a four-year degree,” or, “I’m going to walk alongside my child as they are about to graduate from high school and we’re going to probably graduate from college together.” And just, the joy. And I think that’s when I knew there were so many questions that I wanted to ask and answer as it pertained to equity around first-generation college attendees around, what we now call returning citizens, but what we just called the individuals who were incarcerated. So, that was part of my path. So, that’s, I think, if I had to think about my origin stories in doing this work, it started before I became a researcher, at least a formerly trained researcher.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. That’s a lot, Kim. Right? I mean, you talked about the transformative power of education, and that really drives you. And you talked about it from a system perspective. “How do I work with deans and faculty in the system itself?” You also talked about it from a very deeply personal perspective, walking alongside young people who feel hope because they’re in high school, because they’re in community college, because they’re going to a four-year degree program. And then you talked a little bit about the risk that you took to go off and chart your course, as a consultant, as somebody who wanted to support this growth and development for young people. And it makes me want to take you back for a moment to your youth and ask you, how did you become aware of equity as a thing when you were a young person? When did it first occur to you? When did you start thinking about it? What informed you and your thinking around equity when you were a young person?
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
You know, I thought about that question, and I think about that question, and it really made me wax nostalgic about the gift that my parents gave me, the gift of my family gave me: the gift of storytelling. Right? So, when I think about equity as a concept, we may not have talked about it as a thing of equity, but we did talk about, first, just hearing stories about your parents growing up and the epoch of time in which they grew up and what things were happening.
So, for my parents, being a person of color, being a Black woman born in the South and in America, that meant for me, my parents they came of age in the Civil Rights Movement. And I think about my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, who lived with us, and hearing from—I can’t even remember how young I was—the stories of a woman, a Black woman, born in the hills of West Virginia and being orphaned by the time that she was 8. And what equity meant like for her as a woman, what equity meant for her, first of all, as a Black person, but then as a woman, as a Black woman for that brief span of time in West Virginia.
And then, of course, she and her parents moved to North Carolina probably when she was very young. But ultimately, just the stories, right? What was it to be on your own, to be vulnerable? And not even knowing that you were vulnerable to work for yourself, to advocate for yourself, to work so long and to get so little, to know what abuse felt like up close and personally, and to keep your resolve. And these are the stories that she shared with all of us. So, when I think about equity, I think about those stories that my grandmother shared being a really little girl, and, basically, being parceled out, separated from her siblings, parceled out to other people’s homes, and seeing other kids like her, Black kids, kids of color, going to school, but her not having the privilege because she had no one to advocate for her.
So, having to work in the homes of people, her people, Black people, but they were like, “You know what? You’re here to work. You’re not here to go to school. My kids will go to school.” And not that they thought they were being cruel or thought they were being cruel, these were just the systems and structures that she was caught up in. But I knew, sitting at her feet, literally, as she would comb my hair or just sit around the table with the rest of my cousins, as she would tell her story, I knew that was so not right. And my grandmother used to always say—and [when] my grandmother passed away she was almost 101, and she used to always say that when she—and I’ll probably start crying. I did not want that to happen. But my grandmother used to always say that her prayer, when she grew into adulthood, she knew she wanted to have a famly. She was like, she said she always used to pray, “Lord, let me live long enough so that I can see my children grown, adult, and out of the hands of the wicked.”
You know? Because she lived up close and personal what it was like to be vulnerable as a kid, get your eye put out, and have to live such a hard life. And knowing that it wasn’t right, it wasn’t equitable, but it was her reality. And what she took away from that, was that, “You know what? This may be my reality, but it’s going to stop with me.” And she advocated education for her children. She wanted them to be schooled, because she believed in the transformational power of education because she saw the difference that it could make.
So, when we talk about nested in equity, like we see the things that play out like January 6th and all of the, on the national scale of what it looks like to see two kind of parallel tracks but inequitable tracks of justice. But you can take that as granularly or blow it up as large as you want. Inequity lives at all those levels because, typically, oppressive systems replicate themselves. So, one of the things I took away was that, you know what, inequity and all of the things that inform it is corrosive, it takes no prisoners, and it will consume everyone in its wake. And so, that’s what I think my first lesson of inequity was.
And then, of course, my parents talking about their experiences in the Civil Rights Movement and talking about the inequities there. So, I lived it vicariously through them. I heard it. And for me, it was like a living book. It was like hearing these stories, it was just like cutting on the television and just having these colors play out in my head. But I think it solidified in me that inequities are real and that we can do something, we have a role to play. I hope I didn’t swerve off too much. Yeah. But that was kind of my path.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
I think the theme that you just offered is the one of story, and what I appreciate about you sharing your story about your grandmother is that it was both an awareness of the harsh realities of injustice, but you also saw resilience. And in that resilience and strength came the foundation upon which you began your life and learned about life and thought about your values and what your place in this world was. And it’s different because of who she was and what she shared with you.
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. So, just to get specific for a moment, when you think about the transformative power of education—and I’m going to assume that we’re all talking also about the continuing disparities and inequities in education…
I guess the question that I want to ask you is about some of the really specific things that you do in your work to move us as an education system, as a community, as a nation, towards a more equitable education system.
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
Absolutely. So, I think one of the biggest things that I do in that spirit is, especially since I am an independent evaluator, researcher, is what I know for me. My knowing is grounded in the fact that you can’t achieve equity without respect, without a willingness to share, and without the willingness to cultivate community. So, for me, the foundation of the work that I do is being intentional about collaborating and being intentional about mentorship. And one of the things that I’ve come to learn is that mentorship knows no age, it knows no educational pedigree, because we all have these filmings of blindness, of ignorance. Right? And especially as, I think, as women, as people of color, as Black people, but as anyone I think who knows what it is to be marginalized, or that’s been part of our shared history or experience. I think there is a lot of imposter syndrome that we embody and embed and try to…
We know it’s there, we may not want to acknowledge it. We try to reconcile, deal with it—or not. I think there is a lot of, I call it like chronic critique, where it’s like, I totally applaud taking responsibility, accountability, but I think sometimes women, communities of color, anyone who aspires to… I want to give this all that I have, whatever your gift or talent is, your calling is, I think that sometimes it’s also a habit to chastise yourself and rationalize, “Well, I may not have gotten it, but it was probably because I really didn’t deserve it, or I wasn’t quite good enough in this way or that way.” And I think a lot of us…
And the research shows, women do it all the time. We know, and most of in my circle of women, friends, we talk about how we will second guess to death. “Am I good enough to apply for that position?” Where a man will just say, “Hey, I can finesse my way through it.” And this is nothing disparaging against men. Love them, love them, love them. But these are just realities. So, one of the things I do, going back to your question, is that I know what it feels like to feel, “Maybe I’m too old to not know this thing,” or, “I have no excuse because I went to this school or that school,” but what my lived experience has taught me is that, “You know what? When you aren’t burdened with that sense of imposter syndrome or whatever that burden is, you feel a little bit more privileged and free to own your ignorance because you know there’s no penalty that’s going to be embedded in owning it.”
So, I love opportunities to work with young researchers, grad students, and say, “Hey, did you want to learn this quantitative method? Or have you ever been curious about this particular thing? Well, come on, hang out with me for a little bit.” And I really love that. And I’m never disappointed at how eager and willing and appreciative people are to feel safe and learn. You notice that I can be in a space and admit I’m human, I don’t know it all, and that those things aren’t going to be weaponized against me and say, “Oh, see there? Yeah. I knew she didn’t have it. She couldn’t hack it,” or, “There, I knew, see, they really weren’t quite up to snuff.” I can be in a space and I can contribute. Whatever it is, I can contribute, knowing that I’m going to be filled up and I bring value to the space.
And so, what I try to do is be intentional about being equitable and hopefully making people feel safe. This is a safe place to be, to learn and to grow, and bring yourself. And especially when we think about equity and I think about the images of the different kinds of stepping stools, and when we think about equity, it’s not being the same, it’s about meeting people where they are and giving them what they need. Truly being fair from that standpoint, the fairness of it, as opposed to just saying, “I just parceled everything out equally.” So, I try to do that, and, so far, it’s been a great ride and I’m enjoying it.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. And Kim, it seems to me like your work is possible because you’ve done the work inside first. You’ve wrestled with the imposter syndrome, you’ve wrestled with the, “Am I good enough? Am I really good enough to do this? Well, other people think they’re good enough to do this. I should think I’m good enough to do this.” So, you’ve done the work individually of wrestling with some of the things that, you’re right, many women wrestle with. Maybe men do too. I don’t know. I can’t get inside their heads, but I do hear from women that it does take a while to think about that, “I’m good enough and I’m willing to.” And so, you have transformed that work that you’ve done in service of equity as a way of supporting, through mentorship and through collaboration, support for other young people who might be earlier in their careers and starting that out. I’m wondering if there’s a story of a person or just a mentorship that really illustrates what you’re saying in a powerful way.
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
Yes. It’s a two-part story, but I’ll keep it concise. So, for me, I guess I have a newly minted alumni status as being part of LEEAD. So, Leaders in Equitable Evaluation and Diversity. I think, Elizabeth, you’re familiar with that scholarship.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yes, I am.
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
And I’ve said it a thousand times, I know I’m not the only one, I do really commend you and the Change Matrix ETB team, the masterful matching with mentorship, because I have had one of the most incredible mentorship experiences. I was led to LEEAD by Dr. Mindelyn Anderson, which I know you know Mindelyn as well, and I consider Mindelyn, in addition to being a friend, as being also a near-peer mentor. Having similar experiences, having a similar walk, knowing a lot bit more, not a little bit more, and willing to share and look back and say, “Hey, you know what, Kim, I know this is something that you may benefit from. I see this, I think you should go after this particular thing, this particular opportunity.” And in this case, the opportunity was LEEAD.
But through that process and that near-peer relationship with Mindelyn, you all wonderfully matched me with Dr. Geri Peak. And that particular mentorship experience I consider to be uber transformational. And it’s so funny because Geri and I were having a conversation not too long ago, because of course we still keep in contact. Any good mentor turns into a friend and a colleague, and that’s definitely what Geri is. But I was recounting to her a situation, gosh, some years ago, where I had reached out to a female evaluator, and I was like, we were having lunch and I said, “Oh my goodness, I would really love for you to mentor me.” And her comment to me was, “You don’t need a mentor. You’re too old to have a mentor.” And it just made me… And talking about that whole notion of, “Wow, I guess maybe I should know more than I know.” Geri and I reflected upon that, and of, course you know Geri and she had lots of colorful, fun, spot-on, insightful things to share. But when I hold those two experiences up, I think about what mentorship should be.
But then, for me, when I was afforded an opportunity to connect with a graduate student and one of the local universities here in Chapel Hill—super smart individual, very early on in her career, amazing statistical mind, a heart for community research, and evaluation. And I’ve tried to, in my relating to her, and in my relationship with her, not embody Geri and mimic her, but the best of what I’ve learned from these great mentorship experiences extend that to my relationship with this particular person, because I’m like, “You know what? The one thing that this experience has taught me is the wealth, the gift, the richness in being generous with your time and with what you know and holding space for vulnerability and letting people show up knowing that—I think of Nina Simone and that line in one of her songs, “Don’t let me be misunderstood.” That fear that people have of being misunderstood, and all of the fallout that can come with that.
So, whenever I am talking to, Skyping with, Zooming with any person who has expressed to me an interest in what I do, I just want to hold the space in such a way that they know, “It’s okay, come with what you have and with all you have and with what you’ve yet to gain. If what you really have is a desire to do this work, for me, that’s enough. And we’re going to figure it out together.” That, to me, has been the biggest lesson that I’ve learned in all of this. I’ve learned a lot of them, but I think if that’s the space that you can consistently hold, people show up even if they don’t know, they show up and just ready to figure it out with you.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. That’s a beautiful thing. It really is. It really sounds like your experience offering space to get to equity is so personal, it’s within the bounds of a relationship that is precious. It’s based on time and interest and mutuality. And I love the near-peer mentor example. I thought that was awesome. I know that pursuit of equity is not always easy. I know that sometimes it comes with risk. Sometimes we have to find courage to say the things that we believe that we need to say in pursuit of equity. And I guess I’m wondering, was there ever a time when you felt like you had to take a risk or intervene in a way that felt uncomfortable because you had to, to be in alignment with your values and in alignment with the journey that you’re on?
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
Yeah. And honestly, I think there’ve been a bunch of times, but I think when you have those moments of when it’s really just like the clouds part is like when that time aligns with, “You know what? I’m ready to acknowledge it and step into it.” Because I think there’ve been times where those opportunities have presented themselves for me to be more vocal than I normally am, to advocate more strongly than I would normally advocate, where I thought too much and I hid behind thinking too much. “Oh, well the pros and the cons. On one hand, on the other hand.” And I’m a trained economist, so everyone’s like, “You’ve got too many hands,” but I think that, for me, I think that everything starts really, really—and that’s why I think, for me, most of these things are personal because I don’t think that you can really advocate or you can sell, or whatever you want to call it, something that you don’t believe in or embody. You can fake it for a while, but to really stand in it in good times and bad, it has to connect with you in some way.
And so, I think when I was able to advocate for myself in an authentic way, I was then better able to advocate for others. Right? Because it’s really hard to tell someone to be brave and to really lock arms in transformational types of endeavor where, like everything else, there’s risk involved. Right? There’s comfort. There’s familiarity. There’s knowing of one way, even if that way isn’t great, at least that’s a way that you know. It’s hard to ask people to pony up stuff that you haven’t yet been willing to pony.
And so, I think, for me, making the decision to step out independently into my own practice for all of the reasons that I knew, it was time for me to bid that chapter in my professional career adieu. That was a hard decision, and it was the decision of… And there were all kinds of reasons for me to, to rationalize why it was not the thing to do. But I just knew in my bones that it was the thing to do. And so, I had to craft a way of transitioning out that, for me, would give honor to just handling things in a gracious way, but also knowing that this part of my dance has ended.
So, when I did that, it was like the clouds just parted. And it’s amazing because it’s like once you’re ready for something and really, really ready, you’re going to get it. You’re going to get a lot of these things that maybe, at one point, was just academic and then really kind of becomes a lived thing. And I think I was really then in kind of some tremendous opportunities to do work that really did call upon my advocacy muscle, that called upon my mentoring muscle, that called upon my training muscle in ways that I hadn’t used before. And I don’t think that I could have done that work as authentically and with all of me as I could have otherwise done, that counterfactual outcome, I couldn’t have done it had I not said, “You know what? At some point you’re going to have to take your own advice.” And I think when I took my own advice about advocating for myself in that way, it made all the difference in the world.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. So, here’s the advice I think you’re giving us. Don’t overthink it. You only have two hands. Second thing is live in integrity. Equity requires integrity. So, do the work inside first, and then that makes… The third thing is, if you do the work inside, it makes so much available to you. It’s like riding a bike. There are muscles in there that you may not have exercised for a long time, but they’re there and you can find them because you were living in integrity and you are finding integrity in equity. Yeah. That’s a nexus that I think I hadn’t thought so much about, this idea of we can’t just theorize and think about equity. We first have to live it, which requires us to be internal about it, and then we have to live it with others. And that provides the opportunity to do the more system-level work because we’ve gone through those other steps. Did I say that in a way that you agree with?
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
I would agree. I would concur. Yes. I mean, it starts like most things, from the inside out. Right? We physically are the walking manifestations of what’s going on inside. And especially when we’re talking about systemic inequity, that skeleton is structural inequity, and the systems reinforce that. So it’s this toxic feedback loop. Right? There’s a lot of effort and energy that’s gone into crafting those structures. So, when you proposition or when you propose to dare to think about things differently, and sometimes in doing so you are encroaching on comfort that people hold near and dear, and they can’t contemplate doing things in a different way and stepping out on faith to do things differently, it’s hard to go toe-to-toe. And I don’t mean in an adversarial way because I really—well, that’s a whole philosophical conversation—but toe-to-toe in terms of standing firm and surefooted in what you know. It’s hard to do that when you’ve only pierced the curtain, but you haven’t even dared to put a toe outside, much less your whole self. Right? So, yeah, you’re right. It starts from the inside out. And don’t overthink it.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
You just added a piece of this, though. So, living in integrity to get to equity gives you confidence.
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
Yes.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Right? It gives you the ability to stay when things get hard because you are so in alignment with your values. What is equity? Am I living equitably? Do I have integrity in my own way of thinking about and being equitable? That gives me the strength and the confidence and the courage to stand. That’s cool.
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
(Laughs) I think so.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
I think that’s really cool. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your current practice? It sounds it was a bold move to move—
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
(Laughs)
Elizabeth Waetzig
To move out of where you were because you were comfortable and you knew the system and the structure, and you moved out of it and you’re on your own. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
Absolutely. I am happy to talk about that. My testimony. I started my practice in COVID, which is still, I mean, I go, “Wow!” But I did, which, to me, it’s this more divine confirmation that when it’s time, it’s time. But I started my practice in COVID, and what I do so enjoy about my work and the type of work that I do, I tell people straight away, “Everything I do in my research and evaluation work” — because I do both, and we know there is difference— “is all anchored, framed, nested in social justice. And so, the type of work that I do, it really covers the waterfront, it’s these spokes, but the hub is social justice.
So, the work that I do with EDUCA Consulting it spans food justice and food sovereignty work, housing security work, educational justice, as I love to call it, because I’m looking at lots of issues around STEM and different aspects of STEM and diversifying the, I don’t like to even call it the pipeline, but the landscape, because when we say pipeline, it’s too linear for most people, especially women. We know that our paths to a STEM in-state career is not a straight path, for all those other reasons that we’ve been talking about. Also, I’m doing a growing amount of work in wealth disparity, which I find super cool because my mentor is a labor economist, and I’ve always been fascinated by the work that he does. And I don’t do the same thing, but as I’m reading something that he’s written, as someone’s that he’s trained or who studied up under him has written, I’m now able to pull from so much of that and let that inform some of the work that I do.
Yeah. So, everything from wealth inequity, wealth disparity to housing security and all things in-between—educational outcomes. And that’s the kind of work that really excites me. I do, right now, I would say equal parts research and evaluation, but there’s a lot of great evaluation that I do and I’m learning to do. And to me, I love the collaborative part of all the work that I do, but particularly the evaluation work that I do, because I’m collaborating with people who’ve done evaluation all over the world, and I get the come alongside and they teach me something new every single time. And I’m really enjoying it. And it’s fun because it aligns with those stories that I used to listen to at the kitchen table when my parents or my grandmother used to talk to me about how things are not fair. And it’s always great to have someone who can advocate for you. And it’s always great to have someone who can empathize with your situation and champion someone who’s vulnerable and who really need someone and needs the village to champion for them.
So, I consider myself part of the village. I’m part of the village that’s bringing an evidence-based approach or lifting up community voice. And I really love, Elizabeth, the work that I do, because I believe that knowledge is not this coveted thing that’s only for folks who’ve completed 16-plus years of education, and I think that if we’re really going to stand surefooted in what we know as researchers and evaluators, there’s this notion of being scientifically literate, being politically literate as a citizen. We have to be research-literate. We have to be evaluation-literate.
So, also, in part of the work that I do, I actively work to train community members and how to be evaluators. Because evaluation is not a new thing. We all put a valence on something. We’ve been doing it. Right? But I think it’s a really good thing for community to know that you’ve got power. You’ve got power. You do hold the knowledge of community, but you can analyze that, you can analyze your knowing, and you can dialogue with people who are whomever, researchers or whomever, because most of the time we’re analyzing what you’ve permitted us to have access to. So, you should be fortified with the skills and tools to do that work. Maybe not for pay, you probably don’t want to, but just to know that it’s part of your toolkit to flex that muscle. And I’ve considered that to be tremendous social justice work because people…
Talking about that transformational power of knowing and of knowledge and of education, most times folks aren’t looking to do the same thing that you’re doing or to do it in the way that you’re doing it, but there’s something that is so great about saying, “I understand something. So, I don’t have to engage or be in a space if someone’s talking at me and not to me. I can dialogue and not feel anxious. I can own part of this and know that I’m not just being carried on a ride. I can stand in this.” And I think that’s another thing that I, well, I know that’s another thing, that I love about doing this work.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. So, to just bring us full circle, because you did that, right? Stories matter, people’s stories matter. There is a transformative power of education. Mentorship is critical to equity. It is a critical component of supporting individuals in an education space and lots of other spaces. Equity begins with integrity, leads to confidence. And there is a collaborative nature of the work that you do to close the disparity gap in wealth, in housing, in food, in education, and you really do it at the feet and in service of the community, as a researcher, as an evaluator, who is somebody who’s had the courage to say, “I can do this by myself.” So, that just is a powerful story, Kim. It’s a powerful story from you, but it’s also a powerful story of equity that extends before you and I have no doubt will extend beyond you. So, I really want to thank you for talking with me today, offering your wisdom. We really appreciate it.
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
My pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you for the conversation. I love a good conversation.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
Yeah. Me too. Thanks again.
Dr. Kimberly Harris:
Thank you.
Elizabeth Waetzig:
You’ve been listening to Equity in Action. Join us next month as we explore equity during Women’s History Month. We’ll be speaking with Larke Huang, a retired licensed clinical community psychologist and former senior advisor at the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration in the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
